Questions
This blog is aimed at answering the frequently asked questions we receive regarding Living Faith Fellowship. As people continue to ask questions via e-mail we aim to respond to as many of them as we can on this webpage. This list will grow as questions are asked.
Q: Do LFF ushers carry guns?
A: No, they do not. I was an usher once upon a time and I never encountered another usher with a gun. I know that many people in Eastern Washington have concealed weapons permits, but I highly doubt that anyone would carry a gun in church.
Q: Are LFF ushers involved with any other suspicious activities?
A: Yes, they are. Whenever a suspicious-looking character comes to church, an usher is assigned to watch them for the entire service. The usher will sit near the person in question, and keep tabs on him. The funny thing is, if Jesus Christ were to come to church at LFF, they would surely put an usher on him. He would be labeled a crazy person, and if he came in with any of the low-life type people Jesus tended to spend his time with, the usher teams would go crazy. I must mention that usually this is done with fairly good intentions. There are young children who walk around the church unsupervised, and go use restrooms in the buildings vestibules, right by exit doors that are not visible unless you are by the restrooms, and ushers want to make sure that women and children are not vulnerable to kidnap or attack. One other thing ushers were always doing was counting. They counted everyone. They kept detailed records of the numbers of people who attended church every week, including the numbers in each nursery. They also counted every single car in the parking lot, both upper and lower lots. Why? I have no idea.
Q: Does LFF keep files on their members?
A: Yes, they do. They used to keep paper files, now every thing is done digitally, so there is no paper trail. There is a whole system of keeping track of what is going on. Attendees and members should always be aware that when they are talking to someone in leadership, whether it be a Bible study leader, small group leader, or pastor, things you say may be written down and reported to higher leadership, and may find their way into your LFF file. For a full post on the LFF file systems, please click here.
Q: Is it true that they have arranged marriages at Living Faith?
A: No, not exactly. They do not arrange marriages per se, but they do get very involved with relationships. If they feel that your significant other and you do not make a good match, they try and do everything they can to stop your union. I have seen many couples fall victim to enormous pressure from the leadership to separate. It usually starts at the top and the head pastors advise that couple's "direct oversight" to tell the couple to "seek God more," to see what His will is. If they still think they should get married, the leadership will meet with them over and over telling them that there is sin in their lives and they need to pray more because the leaders are not hearing the same thing. They attempt to plant seeds and induce stress to cripple any relationship that is not deemed divine by those who know more about what is best for you than you. On the other hand, I have witnessed situations where couples were encouraged to pursure relationship by their leadership past the point of mutual affection. For whatever reason, the leadership felt that the two should become one, and in these cases the relationships "bore good fruit" and the leadership made sure they stayed together. One troubling case was when one of the pastors' daughters was nearly forced on a certain guy I knew. The guy was a strong-willed person, and thankfully saw what was happening and got out before it was too late.
Q: A friend of mine told me that the church cost over 8 million dollars, and has over 2,000 seats...why would anybody need a church so big, especially in pullman?
A: Yes, that is true. The church cost somewhere between 7.5 and 9 million dollars. And there is seating for 2200 people. However, a lot of that seating is not open during services because there is no one to put in all that space. As to the idea behind building something so large and so expensive...Arrogance! There is absolutely no reason to build something on that grand a scale in a sleepy little town. The building is impractical, and a true waste of money. It serves mostly as a trophy to LFF; a building which many have likened to the golden calf from days of old. When you visit the LFF website, the building's image jumps out at you. It is the focal point of the page. In addition, they print a picture of the building on most of the literature they pass out. You will find its image grace your church bulletin, your message notes, your Easter invites, CCF posters, and pretty much everything they put in your hands. Truly megalomaniacal. It is sad that they have heaped such a huge financial burden on their members. As many have said before, that money could have done a lot of good and helped many needy people. Instead, it serves only to otiosely proclaim the greatness of a diminishing congregation.
Q: Is it true that LFF members are required to turn over their entire paychecks to the church, and then the church will give them what they see fit? Is that how they pay tithe?
A: LFF teaches, in the introductory classes to the church (formerly known as Going for the Gold and now The Carpenter Series), that the Biblical amount of one's income that should be given to the Lord in tithe is 23.3%. That is twenty-three and one-third percent. They teach that the Bible shows precedence for this through the requirement of three separate tithes: 1. The Levitical Tithe--the 10% that all traditional churches believe in. 2. A "Worship Tithe" which accounts for an additional 10%. 3. An "Alms Tithe" for the poor and needy, which is an additional 10%. The "Alms Tithe" is to be given every third year, but LFF splits it up into three chunks, therby achieving the additional 3.3%. LFF also teaches that the 23.3% tithe is to be taken off the gross income (before tax) of an attendee--not the net (after tax). While it is certainly Biblical that people can give as much as they want to God, as an act of worship to Him--truly the purpose of the tithe--the fact that LFF requires the full tithe of their members is ludicrous. They keep records of the giving of their members, and make sure that all those in regular attendance fulfill the requirement. They have people who will periodically check the "giving records" and communicate with the appropriate leadership of an erring member to make sure the full tithe is reinstated. The "act of worship" of tithing has been largely removed for most members, as they must now learn how to cope with less money to live on.
Q: Do LFF ushers carry guns?
A: No, they do not. I was an usher once upon a time and I never encountered another usher with a gun. I know that many people in Eastern Washington have concealed weapons permits, but I highly doubt that anyone would carry a gun in church.
Q: Are LFF ushers involved with any other suspicious activities?
A: Yes, they are. Whenever a suspicious-looking character comes to church, an usher is assigned to watch them for the entire service. The usher will sit near the person in question, and keep tabs on him. The funny thing is, if Jesus Christ were to come to church at LFF, they would surely put an usher on him. He would be labeled a crazy person, and if he came in with any of the low-life type people Jesus tended to spend his time with, the usher teams would go crazy. I must mention that usually this is done with fairly good intentions. There are young children who walk around the church unsupervised, and go use restrooms in the buildings vestibules, right by exit doors that are not visible unless you are by the restrooms, and ushers want to make sure that women and children are not vulnerable to kidnap or attack. One other thing ushers were always doing was counting. They counted everyone. They kept detailed records of the numbers of people who attended church every week, including the numbers in each nursery. They also counted every single car in the parking lot, both upper and lower lots. Why? I have no idea.
Q: Does LFF keep files on their members?
A: Yes, they do. They used to keep paper files, now every thing is done digitally, so there is no paper trail. There is a whole system of keeping track of what is going on. Attendees and members should always be aware that when they are talking to someone in leadership, whether it be a Bible study leader, small group leader, or pastor, things you say may be written down and reported to higher leadership, and may find their way into your LFF file. For a full post on the LFF file systems, please click here.
Q: Is it true that they have arranged marriages at Living Faith?
A: No, not exactly. They do not arrange marriages per se, but they do get very involved with relationships. If they feel that your significant other and you do not make a good match, they try and do everything they can to stop your union. I have seen many couples fall victim to enormous pressure from the leadership to separate. It usually starts at the top and the head pastors advise that couple's "direct oversight" to tell the couple to "seek God more," to see what His will is. If they still think they should get married, the leadership will meet with them over and over telling them that there is sin in their lives and they need to pray more because the leaders are not hearing the same thing. They attempt to plant seeds and induce stress to cripple any relationship that is not deemed divine by those who know more about what is best for you than you. On the other hand, I have witnessed situations where couples were encouraged to pursure relationship by their leadership past the point of mutual affection. For whatever reason, the leadership felt that the two should become one, and in these cases the relationships "bore good fruit" and the leadership made sure they stayed together. One troubling case was when one of the pastors' daughters was nearly forced on a certain guy I knew. The guy was a strong-willed person, and thankfully saw what was happening and got out before it was too late.
Q: A friend of mine told me that the church cost over 8 million dollars, and has over 2,000 seats...why would anybody need a church so big, especially in pullman?
A: Yes, that is true. The church cost somewhere between 7.5 and 9 million dollars. And there is seating for 2200 people. However, a lot of that seating is not open during services because there is no one to put in all that space. As to the idea behind building something so large and so expensive...Arrogance! There is absolutely no reason to build something on that grand a scale in a sleepy little town. The building is impractical, and a true waste of money. It serves mostly as a trophy to LFF; a building which many have likened to the golden calf from days of old. When you visit the LFF website, the building's image jumps out at you. It is the focal point of the page. In addition, they print a picture of the building on most of the literature they pass out. You will find its image grace your church bulletin, your message notes, your Easter invites, CCF posters, and pretty much everything they put in your hands. Truly megalomaniacal. It is sad that they have heaped such a huge financial burden on their members. As many have said before, that money could have done a lot of good and helped many needy people. Instead, it serves only to otiosely proclaim the greatness of a diminishing congregation.
Q: Is it true that LFF members are required to turn over their entire paychecks to the church, and then the church will give them what they see fit? Is that how they pay tithe?
A: LFF teaches, in the introductory classes to the church (formerly known as Going for the Gold and now The Carpenter Series), that the Biblical amount of one's income that should be given to the Lord in tithe is 23.3%. That is twenty-three and one-third percent. They teach that the Bible shows precedence for this through the requirement of three separate tithes: 1. The Levitical Tithe--the 10% that all traditional churches believe in. 2. A "Worship Tithe" which accounts for an additional 10%. 3. An "Alms Tithe" for the poor and needy, which is an additional 10%. The "Alms Tithe" is to be given every third year, but LFF splits it up into three chunks, therby achieving the additional 3.3%. LFF also teaches that the 23.3% tithe is to be taken off the gross income (before tax) of an attendee--not the net (after tax). While it is certainly Biblical that people can give as much as they want to God, as an act of worship to Him--truly the purpose of the tithe--the fact that LFF requires the full tithe of their members is ludicrous. They keep records of the giving of their members, and make sure that all those in regular attendance fulfill the requirement. They have people who will periodically check the "giving records" and communicate with the appropriate leadership of an erring member to make sure the full tithe is reinstated. The "act of worship" of tithing has been largely removed for most members, as they must now learn how to cope with less money to live on.
updated by Innocence Destroyed @ 1:33 PM
77 Comments:
Is it true that they have arranged marriages at Living Faith??
A friend of mine told me that the church cost over 8 million dollars, and has over 2,000 seats...why would anybody need a church so big, especially in pullman??
One other viewpoint about the church building is that in it's hay day the church attendance was approaching 800+ people. Also, several times a year there were concerts and conferences that necessitated a larger capacity. Also, as to it's image being plastered everywhere, it is a common advertising practice to get one object and use it as your focus point, much like a "logo." Whether right or wrong, this is another explanation behind such an extravagant peice of architecture.
Regarding the question of whether or not LFF requires you to hand over your check: Although not a physical requirement, it might as well be considering the incredible emphasis placed on consistent and "appropriate" tithing. It is not an option to tithe any less than the 23 1/3% if you want to be qualified as an actual "member".
Um...so I suppose the people who maintain this blog respect the opinion of the "other viewpoint about the church building," but I was appalled by the fact you may actually believe what you wrote. First of all in its "hay day" LFF never had 800 people save Easter. Second, if they did need that capacity for concerts they could have built something much more practical. $8,000,000 is a bit steep by any measure. The building is in no way an "extravagant piece of architecture, it is an eye sore. Perhaps it would fit in, in some major metropolitan area, but Pullman? The residents hate it. I can't tell you how many times I heard, "You go to that church, what is up with that ugly building, it's just not Pullman." Had LFF listened to the community, Pullman would not be stuck with such an out of place structure. The sad thing is that the original plan was to make the building larger by adding two more wings.
As to the advertising practice...Please. Why not just a cross? True all of this can be explained away, but that is the problem, people buy the explanation. Take a closer look and think. The man behind the plan is the epitome of self aggrandizement; he wears more rings than Mr. T.
Living Faith with 800+ people? No way. I was there through the "hey-day," and AVERAGE attendance was never more than 500 at most. LFF had a great building already in '96, which seated about 650. If they really expected the growth to occur that would require seats for 2200 people, wouldn't it have been smart to go with two services at least in the beginning? While the downfall of LFF was already set in motion decades before through the spiritual abuse and manipulations of the leadership, the PUBLIC downfall of LFF began with the construction of the new sanctuary. Eventually the bank will own the building, no one will buy it from the bank, and instead of a church in Pullman that reaches people for Christ, the unsaved will be left with a visible justification for their refusal to become a Christian or go to church. What a legacy! The leadership of LFF should be so proud!
I was there in the hay-day I agree that the average attendance was 500 people but i also know that there were a number of occasions the number in attendance was 800 or greater
I believe that would have been an Easter production that you are referring to. All memebers were required to attend all showings and they counted the children in the nurseries as well as the cast memebers in order to get those large numbers. There were never 800 people in the audience and had the members not been required to be there it probably would have been a lot less.
My parents were told by their marriage counselors that they were incompatible, but they got married anyway. They got divorced after being married for 17 years. Go figure.
im sure the fact your parents were divorced is only fuel to the fire of the manipulative leadership. they will wave that banner from the rooftops and shout loud in the streets . they will victory in your parents defeat and use it for their purposes without any thought to the human aspect of it and the pain that you and your parents probably feel.
To answer the question of why the ushers count people, is of course to get an approximatation of how many people are attending - this is obvious. Although, being in the commercial building industry I know that for all structures with inadequate emergency exits (such as this builidng) a head count and vehicle count is required, by law, to be on hand for the fire marshall at ALL times. So there is a legal reason for the counting.
I know that my "courting" and subsequently my marriage was criticized immensely before I took my wife away from this place. Since I was a "poster boy" for spirituality and one of the queen's "boyz", my bride was unfit and really wasn't spiritually yoked with me. Horse dung of course. This place has caused many stress cracks in my marriage that I pray everyday God will heal.
About those arranged marriages, my former spouse and I were encouraged to marry, our relationship was "approved" from the highest levels on down. What I ended up with was a verbally and psycholgically abusive husband, who at one point gave our daughter a black eye. When I expressed my dismay about her shiner to my congegational care leaders, they suggested that perhaps she deserved it.
My ex engaged in some behaviours that by most standards (except his) were not acceptable, and I was told to do my best to cope, in order to save the marriage. Since divorce at LFF is considered a final life sentence of celibacy, and I couldn't see raising the kids on my own, I stuck it out.
By the time we moved away from Pullman our marriage was in bad shape, and we divorced a few years later. I have always wondered how our lives were used as examples of how not to do things at members meetings.....
do they really have a resteraunt in the church?
No, there is no restaurant in the church.
There is a "Yo Cream" counter which is pretty small where they serve juice and yogurt soft serve after services.
About tithing...it's actually just 10% now that they require for membership.
I still think it's strange that they require a certain percentage at all. Tithing should be between you and God, I believe.
Re: Arranged Marriages
I encountered the opposite. I was not "good enough" for my future spouse. Instead they pushed him on a girl he didn't even like for years and put him through humiliating counseling to figure out why he just couldn't love her. When he fell for me, he fell fast, we got married despite their efforts to keep us apart and have a very strong and loving marriage. The effects of their abuse linger and we've had to learn to solve our own problems without running to Home leaders with everything but it is so much better away from there. I grieve for those whose marriages couldn't survive the abuse and for those who were pushed together because they "bore good fruit". What happens to them when they leave? Who will keep their marriage going with the lack of control?
Building a 2200 seat sanctuary for a church of 500?
I attend a church of about 5000-6000 people, and we have 3 services every weekend both Saturday and Sunday. (We use to have 4 services each weekend, until we started the remote campus, first at a local high school, now on its own campus of 65 acres)
We have seating as follows:
1200 at the main sanctuary
700 at second campus 10 miles away (connected via 4 T1 video links, but with a full live worship band and singers)
500 in old chapel building (used occasionally as overflow with a video link)
200-300 overflow in another large classroom as needed (with a video link)
So basically 1900 main seats and up to about 800 if you push it for overflow for a church hmm, 10-12 times the size of LFF? And they have 2200 seats? What the ????
The question is who was the smart guy with that idea? I could MAYBE see building a sanctuary of 900-1000 or so IF you had plenty of money. Maybe someone had some family or friends in the construction business ;-) It would be interesting to follow the money trail…
Christmas and Easter we have 6-8 services (1:00 pm, 3:00 pm, 5:00 pm, 7:00 pm, 9:00 pm, 8:45am, 11am etc.) depending on the anticipated demand. Why build a church for the 2 times a year you need a big facility?
When I was on active duty in the Washington DC area for over 2 years, I attended Fairfax Community Church, http://www.fairfaxcommunity.net/, a church of about 900 at the time, and now maybe 1100 or so. They began a building project for a 600-700 seat sanctuary, and one thing really impressed me about the planned building was the built-in design for expansion, without spending the money right now. That’s leadership, that’s seeking God’s wisdom…
Very clever…
What is so secretive at the "members" meetings. I don't understand, or what is that all about?
What are the founding Pastors credentials? Do you think that things have changed since they left?
I was an usher in the 1980s and i knew of at least three ushers who carried guns at the behest of Dr. B. Steve, Terri & one other. These ushers were specially trained and i think it was hush hush. i knew because i felt the gun under the suit coat of an usher friend of mine. My HG leader knew and when asked gave details. I don't know if they continued the practice. Perhaps like the dirty jokes told at upper level meetings (level 4 & 4) perhaps this was stopped also because of criticisms. (the information was leaked).
A previous post asked about why some meeting were secret. One reason was it was a carrot - a status to be attained (level 3). You had to go through catechism, join home group, probably tithe at lease a certain amount, etc. It was an effective stick also - you could loose status as a disciplinary measure and this usually preceeded disfellowship. Things are said and discussed at these meetings that are not ment for public dissemination. For instance: disfellowship of errant memeber, controversies, and the meeting was a prime damage control tool. If someone left the church they were discussed at length, Bardens asked what anyone knew and it became a big gossip session and information gathering tool for Bardens to defuse any truth that might be on the loose. One incredible night (when the Jim Jones poison Kool-Aid thing had broke and rumors were all around Pullman about Bardens serving Kool-Aid) the Barden's actually asked if we would all drink Kool-Aid if they served it up. Most raised their hands or nodded in approval. I just sat there kind of numb. The Kool-Aid question wasn't presented as "we are going to kill you" but in the light of "do you really trust us?" Though it was a retorical question, i think Karl Barden unstable enough that if pushed over the edge he might, or one of his underlings. This is pure speculation but i must simply point out that this group is not given to rational or scriptural thinking. As Paul says "twisting scripture to their own destruction".
Credentials - Dr. Bardens degree in divinity is strictly a mail order degree. It was the original Catechism One that was the basis of his "degree". Actually others did the work. It was Barden who directed the effort as sort of an editor. Kind of the blind leading the blind. Karl was a relatively new convert as were his writers. The foundation of the church was constructed by babes in Christ with lots of enthusiasm and little experience or discernment. Most of all they were "yes men" willing to do anything the main man demanded. I doubt that Karl or the rest of them got any real credentials or had to pass the scrutiny of any oversight. This is one reason the bible college was started - to produce credentials for members going into ministry. I call Dr. Barden by that title because of his dentistry credentials - he wasn't that good of a dentist in my experience. I suppose i do this because i don't have any warm fuzzy personal feeling toward him. It is not in my heart to condemn him - ultimately that is Gods call however he sees it (only God sees the heart). But the bad fruit on the Barden tree is too abundant to ignor any more. We are called by God to exercise discernment.
George N. Sally
"Pastor" Joe received his degree from LFF, again the blind leading the blind and much like 1984 (with groupthink and limiting differing opinion and maximizing control). Huh, most pastors have a degree (usually a doctorate or PhD) from an outside university or seminary.
I hope that the members of LFF can become free. Let NO man stand in between them and God.
(response to 7/25/2006 11:41 AM)
Actually, no.
Most major denominations train and ordain their own ministers. Central bible colleges are run by the head organisation, and then they licence and place pastors into churches around the world. For example, a Nazarene pastor would get his degree from a Nazarene institution, and a Catholic priest would be expected to have risen through the ranks of the Catholic hierarchy.
Non-denominational churches like LFF are actually more open in this area, because of the lack of centralised authority. Because there is no "mid-sized charismatic church pastor training center university" anywhere, churches like LFF have two ways of getting licenced staff - ordain their own, or accept outsiders. LFF has done both. PK got his initial ordination degree from the International Assemblies of God, and his advanced degrees from Kings College and Seminary. Pastor John Carlson, a recent staff addition, was also ordained through the Assemblies of God independently from LFF (CMT renewed his licence).
In-house training is a very common practice, and is seen everywhere from local churches to local McDonald's. There is nothing blind about training your own, especially when there is outside input. Comparing CMT to 1984 is a little bit of a stretch.
Is CMT still going? The LFF website is not very good about advertising events.
John Brower
I left the Moscow/Pullman area in 2002, and like others on here, have my own stories of confusion and pain at things that happened during my time at LFF. I am curious though....the church appeared to be going strong when I left the area a couple of years ago. Now the web site is much less elaborate or specific about the church and it's ministries. Has the church faltered or lost people, or is it simply scaling back? It used to seem that there was a pastor and program for every area of the church. Now it only lists the Vances and Joe. Do you know what types of changes have taken place?
FYI: LFF's Ministry Staff
WOW! I must say that some of the things you talked about in this church have happened in my church, but the whole tithing thing...lol...that is just plain stupid. If people actually do pay a tithe of 23.3% I've gotta say good job to the Pastors on tricking so many people because I think a lot of people have a hard time giving 10% let alone 23.3%.
in the name of Jesus: Joe, Phil, and Kari....let others be free!!! Pastor Joe let God's people go! Pastor Phil let God's people go. Kari let God's people go!
Look up the meaning of tithe. It means 10%. So anything above 10% is not a tithe. It's like saying a 6-person quartet.
I'm a tither and a giver, so I don't disagree with tithing - when it is taught correctly!!!
This is one messed up church. Sounds very much like what my former church in Western Canada has become. Thank God I am free and I am able to hear from God and follow Him without feeling like I am being rated by my leaders.
I believe that it's a church's job to build the people, not the people's job to build the church. That is where a lot of church's go wrong and end up destorying people's lives. Just today I heard of a girl from my former church who was forced to give her husband an ultimatum - church or their marriage. He chose church. He had become controlled by it. My heart goes out to her.
I was looking at the "cult awareness list" that LFF has been listed on. If you read through the various organizations that are listed as "cults" you find that organizations such as YWAM, Church of God denomination, etc. are listed. That list is inaccurate, and ultra conservative. Frankly, it doesn't make your case look so good.
I go to lff and i have never heard any preaching on a 23.9 % tithe or whatever you all are talking about. Why would you create a website and blog to lead people astray from a church that not diminishing but growing. Look at the college ministry its growing. Man i fell sorry for those of you that waste your time sitting around trying to denounce ministries its quite rediculous. Maybe you were burned by the previous leadership of this church but things have changed and man is the church wonderful. Try to learn a simple principle its called forgivness jesus gives it freely so we shoud all learn to do the same. Again i am sorry for anyones misconceptions of this church. Without it i dont know where i would be and now that i wouldnt be living such an amazing walk with God if it wasnt for LFF.
The 23.3% tithe was a requirement to become a "full" member back in the first part of the 90's. It is good to hear "someone" has had a revelation that tithe=10%. I used to have that disagreement with my HCL's all the time. Lucky for me I was a poor college student back then so 23.3% of nothing was nothing.
The new church was built on members buying Church Bonds. This was often a very bad deal for the members. Shortly after I left in 1995, I knew a few people that wanted out of their bonds but the leadership at LLF twisted their arms to hold onto the bonds.
I was a "Full" member for a short time before leaving and it was an eye opening part of this organization. The members meeting was a grand ol' gossip session. I can imagine what they said after I left.
My experience with arranged marriages is an interesting one. My wife was being encouraged to like someone else as was I. We both ignored this encouragement. We started the marriage homework and it took 4 months of constant cancelations before our first session. Schedule-Cancel-Schedule-Cancel over and over again. Once or twice ok, but every week for 4 months.... we started to question things.
I think the final straw was our experience teaching the pre-school Sunday school. My now wife and I team taught the little ones. As part of the school lesson we had a snack time. The kids always seemed to be very hungary. So we asked them how many had any type of breakfast. Only one of the 15 or so kids raised their hands. We then asked if they ever got a breakfast and maybe 1/4 of them raised their hands. At that point we gave them all the snacks we had. The kids of parents that were giving 23.3% of their net income were starving their kids physically and mentally. Oh the stories I have of the kids that never saw their parents.
So when both my now wife and I saw what was going we left. And very abruptly too. We both saw people try to leave "gently" only to be torn apart mentally. So it was break free quickly or not at all.
13 years later now we are happily still happily married and glad to be free from the past abuse.
But it did take some time to heal from the experience.
Kind Regards, MC & CC
The church bonds were the only way to obtain financing for capitol projects in the pre-subprime credit days. Back then, no band would finance a church building because there was no sellable collateral. We re-financed the bonds with the Bank as soon as it was practical, a move that has saved the church (and its members) thousands of dollars.
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lff is a cult nothing more
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In my short time at LFF, I noticed that past "Prophecies" given by somebody proven in the gift of "Prophetic Word" were sometimes referenced in sermons alongside scripture. I am unclear whether or not they actually consider such "prophecies" on equal footing with scripture, but that was my impression. These people were said to be "inspired" (the same word applied to scripture in the Bible) by the spirit to speak the words of God. This practice boggled me. Can someone shed some light on LFF's doctrine regarding these "prophecies" (if this person was "proven" to have this gift, who proved it? Does LFF effectively claim this man is a prophet?) Also, the "word of knowledge" spoken to god about about someone needing healing for a particular ailment is beyond me. Why can't those in need of healing come forward themselves and be healed? I struggle with the logic behind the theology.
I consider myself a very devout Christian, and when I when to LFF I started to drink their doctrine, but my firm roots in Christ didn't allow me to finish their cup. Kool-aid is not the blood of Christ. I believe in a place where like minded believers can go to hear commentary on the Gospel and enjoy fellowship (you can call this place Church if you will) but I don't believe in a body the closely regiments the lives of its members and tells them how to live in God. I remember one time at Wednesday night service the message preached was one of respecting authority, comparing the leaders of the church to the officers of an army. I found this misguided, to say the least. No one should come between me and God, I don't need a mediator, and I don't need an earthly commanding officer. Where does LFF get some of its theology? Because a lot of their religious practices don't seem to fit into Christianity. This coming Sunday is the first Sunday I will not be attending LFF in several weeks. That is if I have the strength to snub some of the close friends I have made their in this time. Leaving will be hard, because LFF roots itself into every aspect of it's members life, and makes quick work of getting to newcomers. Best to pull out the weed before it establishes itself, or else you risk pulling out a large portion of good soil (my own little parable).
In my short time at LFF, I noticed that past "Prophecies" given by somebody proven in the gift of "Prophetic Word" were sometimes referenced in sermons alongside scripture. I am unclear whether or not they actually consider such "prophecies" on equal footing with scripture, but that was my impression. These people were said to be "inspired" (the same word applied to scripture in the Bible) by the spirit to speak the words of God. This practice boggled me. Can someone shed some light on LFF's doctrine regarding these "prophecies" (if this person was "proven" to have this gift, who proved it? Does LFF effectively claim this man is a prophet?) Also, the "word of knowledge" spoken to god about about someone needing healing for a particular ailment is beyond me. Why can't those in need of healing come forward themselves and be healed? I struggle with the logic behind the theology.
I consider myself a very devout Christian, and when I when to LFF I started to drink their doctrine, but my firm roots in Christ didn't allow me to finish their cup. Kool-aid is not the blood of Christ. I believe in a place where like minded believers can go to hear commentary on the Gospel and enjoy fellowship (you can call this place Church if you will) but I don't believe in a body the closely regiments the lives of its members and tells them how to live in God. I remember one time at Wednesday night service the message preached was one of respecting authority, comparing the leaders of the church to the officers of an army. I found this misguided, to say the least. No one should come between me and God, I don't need a mediator, and I don't need an earthly commanding officer. Where does LFF get some of its theology? Because a lot of their religious practices don't seem to fit into Christianity. This coming Sunday is the first Sunday I will not be attending LFF in several weeks. That is if I have the strength to snub some of the close friends I have made their in this time. Leaving will be hard, because LFF roots itself into every aspect of it's members life, and makes quick work of getting to newcomers. Best to pull out the weed before it establishes itself, or else you risk pulling out a large portion of good soil (my own little parable).
In my short time at LFF, I noticed that past "Prophecies" given by somebody proven in the gift of "Prophetic Word" were sometimes referenced in sermons alongside scripture. I am unclear whether or not they actually consider such "prophecies" on equal footing with scripture, but that was my impression. These people were said to be "inspired" (the same word applied to scripture in the Bible) by the spirit to speak the words of God. This practice boggled me. Can someone shed some light on LFF's doctrine regarding these "prophecies" (if this person was "proven" to have this gift, who proved it? Does LFF effectively claim this man is a prophet?) Also, the "word of knowledge" spoken to god about about someone needing healing for a particular ailment is beyond me. Why can't those in need of healing come forward themselves and be healed? I struggle with the logic behind the theology.
I consider myself a very devout Christian, and when I when to LFF I started to drink their doctrine, but my firm roots in Christ didn't allow me to finish their cup. Kool-aid is not the blood of Christ. I believe in a place where like minded believers can go to hear commentary on the Gospel and enjoy fellowship (you can call this place Church if you will) but I don't believe in a body the closely regiments the lives of its members and tells them how to live in God. I remember one time at Wednesday night service the message preached was one of respecting authority, comparing the leaders of the church to the officers of an army. I found this misguided, to say the least. No one should come between me and God, I don't need a mediator, and I don't need an earthly commanding officer. Where does LFF get some of its theology? Because a lot of their religious practices don't seem to fit into Christianity. This coming Sunday is the first Sunday I will not be attending LFF in several weeks. That is if I have the strength to snub some of the close friends I have made their in this time. Leaving will be hard, because LFF roots itself into every aspect of it's members life, and makes quick work of getting to newcomers. Best to pull out the weed before it establishes itself, or else you risk pulling out a large portion of good soil (my own little parable).
(From a current LFF member)
Prophetic words are NOT held to be on par with scripture. Everything in church - music, sermons, and prophecies - must be held to the standard of the Word of God. Nobody is perfect, and no one with the gift of prophecy in our church claims to hear or speak the word of God perfectly.
However, we do believe that God wants to speak to every believer, and that includes those with a gift for bringing prophetic words to the congregation (1 Corinthians 14:1-4). The prophetic flow at a service is not meant to replace the Bible. Instead, it is one of many ways God chooses to speak to Christians and to the church. But the Word of God is always supreme.
I know you have a lot of questions, so please don't be afraid to ask. There are good reasons for all of this stuff, and we are very open to comments and concerns.
But if Living Faith isn't seeming like the church for you, no problem! There are lots of great ministries in the area, and going to different churches doesn't mean that fellowship can't happen. I have lots of friends in other churches, and remain heavily involved at LFF. Find the church where you will grow, and then plant yourself there! Psalm 92:12-14
Thank you for sharing about your concerns with LFF. It helps those that suffer from similar problems.
I'm a devout Christian and I guess you could call me conservative, every time I've visited this church I always had this pull to get out of there as soon as possible. The possibility that money used on the building of the church went directly into the pockets of "pastors" or related people is very high as I was talking to a friend from class who goes there asking him where he works, he stated that he worked for a painting business owned by the youth pastor and since he wasn't making much he was doing it in order to bless the pastor. Heard some stories that the senior pastor owns a bunch of commercial property as well, renting it out to the college students. There is just too much that rubs the wrong way about this church. The people that go there are pretty decent to deal with but the messages taught in that church are really something. Have never seen a church like this before that barely teaches the Word of God, skims through the Bible and uses all kinds of stories from their own life supposedly teaching something from the Bible, but in reality there is no correlation.
LFF keeps track of tithes so they can give you a form to turn in for your taxes, not for tracking purposes. They do not force members to contribute the 23 1/3% but ask instead that you pray about it and do what God asks of you given your financial standing and where you are in your faith. I am a member and involved in leadership and have never been asked why I don't give more than 10% and also have never been confronted when I have failed to give anything
Everything else aside, the attitude at LFF is absolutely toxic.
The damage the leadership has done to my family and the families of my friends is life long. It's hard to give examples and remain anonymous, but here are the words that come to mind: manipulation, deception, and hierarchical arrogance.
I believe there are some who mean well, but LFF has a LOT of work to do before they are able to operate in a way that is healthy for individuals and families.
What a great feeling to be LFF free. We still have our struggles, but everyone in my family is doing much better since we left.
What is up with all the LFF "bless the pastor" funny business. Isn't church about what we can do for God, our community, and those less fortunate.... NOT the pastors? Allowing people to work for you for free, it's just not right. I'm sure they have more productive things to be doing than scrubbing your sink.
I was aware of some ushers carrying guns and it was optional. Also, in my experience there, arranged marriage was more deliberate than what you are describing and experienced.
My husband an I have been involved with LFF since Aug 2007. They never have made us tithe. We already had strong convictions on tithing from our 40 years of Christian living and application of God's word to our lives.
Regarding "blessing the pastor" when some one performs free work for them. What business is it of any one else who I chose to bless and how I chose to bless them. If I do something good for my husband, children, family, friends, coworkers, that is between them myself and God.
What right does anyone have to judge who and how I choose to bless.
I think it is fair to say that LFF has changed for the better over the last few years. We have found Pastor Phil to be sound spiritually. He gives messages that are down to earth and applicable. If you want someone dissecting scripture sentences word for word, then you might not care for his Sun sermons. But he gives sermons that are "life filling", that bring you closer to Christ and your relationship with God.
No church is without faults and challenges. Why? Because they are made up of HUMAN BEINGS. Jesus' disciples couldn't get it all straight even after being with him day in and out for three years.
The real question I pose to all is " are you where God wants you to be, growing in your relationship with Him, helping to make your church, community and family better? Are you imparting life to those around you or have you become "toxic" in your hurt?
May we each see the blessings daily that God has for us, Wendy Delzer
Dear Wendy,
I'm glad to hear that you haven't been abused or hurt from LFF - that's great. I honestly mean that. But I ask you not to make judgments about my experiences. Since you and your husband started attending church in 2007, I think it's safe to say that I have a much better background on the history of the church (1986-2003).
You are sort of right about the "blessing the pastor" stuff. If you like to spend your time servicing the pastors and leadership, that is your choice. I just want to comment that for some it was not something they would have chosen to do, but rather something they were told they needed to do. One of my friends cleaned house for one of these pastor families. We laugh about it now, but she used to hate cleaning the teenage sons' bathroom. They were the same age as her and I think we all know how gross teenager bathrooms can be! :)
I am not toxic in my hurt as you suggest. I'm actually pretty stinkin' happy. :) I enjoy hearing other people's experiences and am grateful for this site. No need to judge.
I have a question for those who have been hurt, abused or mislead by LFF. Would you appreciate an apology? If so, who would it need to come from?
I went to Pullman Christian School and has some pretty awful experiences: being spanked in front of my entire class when I didn't even know what I did wrong, having the rest of the school be instructed not to talk to me for nearly an entire school year (I was about 8 years old) because I was a bad influence, having the church instruct my parents to box up all my toys and stuffed animals (same time frame)and having to clean the school on all my breaks, I could go on... The point is, I was hurt. Years later, after I had graduated, Pixie Keifer (who was the principle at the time, but had since left) called my mother to apologize. Pixie called to apologize to me, but my mother told her that she didn't think I was ready. My mom was right; I wasn't ready. But just knowing that Pixie called, really made an impact and I respect her for what she did. She was definitely not to blame for everything that happened to me. I think eventually I would have moved past my hurt and gotten to where I am today, but Pixie's call definitely expedited that change.
There's a few other LFF folks I'd love to hear an apology from. I'd like to hear some acknowledgement of the hardships they inflicted upon me, my family and my friends. I think I'm just tired of LFF hopelessly trying to justify their actions. No one's perfect and I'm listening... It's OK. Just admit the mistakes you've made.
Anyone else have similar feelings?
This comment has been removed by the author.
how come on the other blog it says:
"
The comment boards will remain open for discussion, because flashes of pain and anger haunt, and sometimes you simply need the ear of someone who understands.
"
yet no one can post comments on anything and it says: "Comments on this blog are restricted to team members.
"
?
did LFF take control of the other blog?
I'm pretty sure they are not able to "take over" a blog owned by google. what makes you think that?
Your question, "what makes you think that?" assumes the author of the comment is thinking something preposterous. This question does not deserve a response
Perhaps the blog administrator caved into LFF and gave up the password. I don't think anyone really thought LFF wrestled ownership of the blog from a publicly traded company.
Last poster- thats a bit on the mean side :( ...
General-
if LFF has the password, wouldt they take down the blog asap then?
My brush with LFF occurred when my new wife and I were approached as I exited registration at UI in 1988. It was the now pastor Phil Vance that approached us and invited us to a Friday night college group at the SUB. Before I knew it, we were attending church there on Sunday's a couple from the church was following us around before, during, and after the service. The music pastor was calling me all the time inviting us over for lunch, dinners etc. I felt that the choreographed worship, the props, was a little creepy. At one service, my wife and I were pulled out of our seats and we found ourselves playing "ring around the rosey" during the post message worship. After service, ushers were tapping people on the shoulder and then lining up at the pastors office for a "talk."
Luckily, my course work at UI was keeping me busy during the week, but my wife was over there almost every night involved in small groups, pot lucks, etc... One night, my wife came home and said she had to clean the house of a small group leader while the leader sat and did nothing. This kind of invasive control was something I had experienced as a new christian with disastrous results. I resolved never to let that happen to me again. My wife and I eventually found a smaller church in Moscow to attend.
I'm Anonymous user from: 7/24/2012
7/27:
How come you didt talk to anyone or tell them you didt feel comfortable about or call them weird but just went with it?
I'm Anonymous user from: 7/24/2012
7/27:
How come you didt talk to anyone or tell them you didt feel comfortable about or call them weird but just went with it?
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Do people still think about this church in such bad light? Is stuff still going on there that's controlling???
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you are taking LFF's beliefs and twisting them into your own perspectives. heres my perspective on your questions (p.s. try to keep an open mind even though you started your investigation already convinced that LFF is some terrible place):
Q #2: how is counting the number of people suspicious behavior? a lot of churches keep tabs on church attendance in order to anticipate for special events or for seating reasons. its for records--they're not trying to be creepy. also, they keep an eye on "suspicious looking people" for the safety of the congregation. church should be a safe and trusting environment for everyone. there have been (recent) incidents where eccentric, anonymous persons have jumped on stage during service & started shouting at the congregation to REPENT REPENT! and were waving objects in the air--idk about you but i'd be frightened and concerned.
Q #3: again, you're looking at the "files on church members" thing in the wrong perspective. they dont keep files on people in order to harass them. if one wanted to participate in church by ushering or helping out in a nursery then they'll keep a file of you and your information. why? well, obviously they need to make sure you're qualified & reliable for the job! and secondly, a church is a unified group of believers who love and trust each other as family, therefore they are accountable for each other. a concerned youth pastor or bible study leader might notice one of their members are starting to distance themselves. naturally, they will look up their information, contact them to see if they're ok, and if the person insists on distancing themselves then thats ok! its their choice! LFF does NOT force people to come & participate in church. they understand free-will.
question #4: an arranged marriage is planned/agreed by the parents of the bride and groom in which the couple has little or no say in their parents' decision. LFF does NOT do this. they encourage members to find love with a similar believer in Christ by organizing singles groups and socializing events. they are simply encouraging and helping people find love. this is not an arranged marriage...
question #5: "As to the idea behind building something so large and so expensive... Arrogance!"--umm what? whats wrong with building a big church? it was built for God's glory! they wanted to put time, effort, and diligence into a beautiful structure in order to honor God. why would they build a small, cheap church if they had the money to build a glorious one for God? also, they obviously made it large in order to hold a large congregation! how disappointing it would be if a new church could not seat a potentially large crowd. how were they supposed to predict that not enough people would be able to fill the many pews every sunday? building their large facility was NOT OUT OF ARROGANCE.
question #6: "the fact that LFF requires the full tithe of their members is ludicrous." whats ludicrous is how you actually fabricated and even believed such a nonsensical conclusion as that. they DO NOT force people to tithe a certain amount. yes, they encourage people to tithe as much as they feel compelled to so they can participate in another form of worship, but NO THEY DO NOT REQUIRE OR FORCE ANYONE TO TITHE. that is their relationship with God! they do not interfere with an individual and their relationship with God.
im sorry that you had a terrible time at LFF but they are definitely not a cult and are definitely not trying to ruin anyones' lives. they dont force or require anyone to do anything they do not want to do. share your thoughts with me~
I came to Moscow as a college junior in 1992. One of my close middle school/high school friends had already been at UI for 2 years and through his older sister, he had gotten involved in the church. When I arrived, he had begun pulling away from the church but his sister was a very active member. She had remained in Moscow, it seemed to me at the time, purely for LFF. I got involved because I was so far from home and needed to establish myself somehow. The fact that I searched for and found this blog after over 20 years demonstrates how long reaching the effects of this church are.
Last night I was sitting in a large church in my home town and I kept having horrifying flashbacks to my time at LFF. It truly was such an uneasy time in my life ... Having grown up Catholic, I was suddenly being told that I wasn't Christian - something that I still do not believe. I was attending the home care group and wasn't quite sure I liked the control I was seeing... And losing. But I was making friends.
I never felt like I was good enough. But I kept on going. I watched my friend's sister (who I had come to truly care about and love as a sister) pushed into a relationship that she wasn't sure about but the Pastors all thought was wonderful. I "got in trouble" for watching "Grease"! I bristled after a while and when I left for summer break, I made a clean break from the church. Nothing really bad happened to me, but I was very impressionable and I wonder what would have happened if I'd stayed.... The next year none of my friends were allowed to talk or hang out with me - that hurt and felt VERY unchristian ... But I made new friends and moved on. But now when I look at this church in my hometown I'm scared ... It could be the right place OR it could be a repeat of LFF - past experience makes me scared to find out ...
Be free Church. He can no longer torment you.
It is true, there were some problems with the clergy at LFF for a while, MANY years ago. We are all FALLEN! No man is perfect and I am not condoning their actions, yet the new clergy is nothing like the old. I started attending over a year ago and it is a wonderful christ-centered church. As a christian, you should be helping others to come to christ, not bashing on a church that some had issues with years ago. I believe this website is wrong, and should be taken down. LFF is not a cult, there are amazing families and people there who love Jesus with all their hearts. Please stop using past faults to slam our church, and using false accusations as well. So what if we have a big church, our goal is to bring so many to christ that we FILL it! We don't have arranged marriages at all, those who seek counsel are given it- and the clergy strives to do whats best for the couple because they love each of them. As for tithing- we talk about it every weekend. Basically what is said is that if you are in a position to give and god has put it on your heart to give then give. THATS ALL! Please give this all a rest, and find a constructive way to share the love of jesus to those who don't know him.
- A Student who LOVES her church.
Is this blog still active? What's the latest news regarding LFF?
LFF is an amazing place!! I am so thankful for being raised and brought up in such a loving community. I know in the past there were some horrible issues in the leadership and we almost went through a church split type scenario when I was a kid. I think since the change of pastorship in the early 2000's things have dramatically changed for the better. I was recently talking with one of the leaders in the church and he mentioned that LFF has been going through a season of humbling for about a decade. Diminishing congregation size, the shrinking Christian school, various maladies and illnesses amongst the church leadership, tight finances etc. All worked together to bring humility into the hearts of our leaders. It's incredible to see where the church is at now. The preaching is much richer and more theologically sound than its ever been, the people in the congregation are EXTREMELY caring and accepting.. we do food drives, house homeless people in the worship center, our congregation is growing in numbers and in depth and we have anonymous groups for those struggling with sex and drug addictions. It's not a perfect place by any means, and I'm not trying to discount the legitimate hurt and pain that many former members have experienced, but for those who were hurt, please take peace knowing we're not harming people in the same way anymore, in fact we are a safe haven and a family for many who don't have a home. Praise the Lord for redemption!!,
I know this is like, 5 years after you posted haha... But you should give 1 Peter a look. :) "it's time for judgement to return to the house of God".. your comment reveals some ignorance as to what the word of God actually teaches. LFF does practice a type of authority and "judgement" that is not meant to take away, but meant to bring life. It's rooted in love, not hierarchal arrogance. Not always perfect, but sincerely loving. It's completely scripturally mandated. You should read some of Paul's words about church discipline. I'd say the new testament church probably practiced greater levels of church discipline than LFF ever has. I wonder how many blogs would've been written about Peter or Paul's churches had internet existed back then. I get your pain though. It's a lifetime battle for each of us to learn to come under authority and submit our stubborn and prideful hearts to the wishes of Christ.. and we as the church are the body of christ, so it may do us good to lay down our bitterness and toxic pride and SUBMIT to each other in love, lest our pride destroy us. Lifelong battle. Blessings brother.:) wish you the best on your journey with God.
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